Poor, poor John Locke. He's such a pawn in the game between Ben and Widmore, Kate points out his lack of love, Jack says probably the most hurtful thing ever to him, then he gets murdered by Ben. Maybe that's the sacrifice he had to make? Speaking of sacrifice, is anyone else noticing a lot of religious imagery and metaphors popping up? (Armeniac, I'm looking at you...) It's strange to think of Locke becoming a Christ figure, but I'm getting that impression more and more.
Some questions (as if you guys need them):
1. So is Widmore good or bad? Up untill this point I always took him as being more evil or just as evil as Ben, but now I'm starting to reconsider.
2. If it is Abaddon's job to "get people where they need to be", is he responsible for more people from 815 ending up on the Island? Or was John Locke the only one? Would the plane have went down if he wasn't on it?
3. Did Ben mean what he said to John before he killed him, or was he just saying what he needed to get the name of Eloise Hawking out of him? Is John a threat to Ben's place on the island?
4. What made the Oceanic 6 disappear on the plane, as opposed to everyone else who just crashed? Did Ben disappear or crash? His wounds would suggest he crashed, but I wouldn't put it past him to fake injuries in order to get what he wants.
5. Don't you think they're putting a little too much emphasis on Caesar? Do you fear they're going to bring in more new characters that we're supposed to care about?
6. The pilot and a woman left on the boat. Who was this woman, and where were they going?
46 comments:
Two things.
Firstly, I think I figured Kate out.
In an episode she woke up, grabbed a gun, ran into Aaron's room, Claire warned her never to take him back to the Island. Then she REALLY woke up, ran straight into Aaron's room, and was justifiably freaked out. To me this indicates that in her dream she was still the 'shoot 'em up' Kate but then upon actually waking, her 'mother' instinct took over and she, instead of going for the gun, went right to Aaron. SO... maybe the reason she was so upset is because she made the CHOICE to leave him, since she believed it better for him... but it was difficult and painful. Much like Sawyer leaving her when badassly diving out of the 'copter. I'm not a mother so I'm not sure... and my memory of the above mentioned episode may be spotty since I most usually have cocktails whilst enjoying LOST...
Secondly, I think the reason Ben wanted Locke to kill his pop, way back when, was to keep him from 'realizing his full potential' as a spirit communicator, smoke monster/alpert monster dodger, etc. But he didn't kill his pop. So Locke is still pure. If Locke had hanged himself I don't think he would've been pure any more. I think Ben had to kill him. I can't, however, speculate on why Ben would've felt the need to do this at the mere mention of the old broad's name.
I'm still holding out for Mr. Eco.
I figured Ben "needed" Locke to convince everyone to go back to the island since they definitely wouldn't go just because Ben said so. But when he found out Jin was alive he knew he could get Sun to go back & he knew Jack was starting to crack since he'd booked that flight to New Zealand.
Why he wants Locke dead I'm not sure. Because Ben wants to rule the island again & Locke satnds in the way of that? Because it would fuck with Widmore?
-miller
I'll be the first one to call it -
Locke is a Jedi.
The hood was proof.
Locke is Jacob! There is said it.
-m
MH, you just blew my mind! I like it.
I loved this episode. The character of John Locke shows more depth than just about any TV role ever. I felt so sad for him when he was talking to Jack in the hospital. Jack was being such a dick. Shouldn't he win an Emmy or Golden Globe or something for this role?!
I think Ben killed him because once he had Hawkings name he figured he didn't need John's help to get back to His Precious. And like Miller said, John stands in the way of his ruling the island.
Megagem, I like your Kate theory.
H. Conway Esq
This episode was really touching. I have completely hardened my heart towards Ben forever, do you hear me Ben? I thought that Jack telling Locke he had nothing to live for was a case of the pot calling the kettle black and Kate, too. After all, all Kate has is a stolen baby!
What do you guys think the sides in the war are going to be?
Yes, I agree with Heather and Miller...Ben just needed Eloise's name from John so he could get back on the island and he doesn't want John to lead after all so he killed him. But one thing puzzles me - if he's shamming his way off (tricking John into letting him turn the wheel) and on (tricking John into giving him Eloise's name) the island, and he's not indeed supposed to go back (didn't "disappear" with the flash on the plane) why is Eloise working with him in LA/at the Lamp Post?
-m
Oh, what's up with the new survivors? Will they be one side of the war? Also, don't they seem surprisingly willing to accept John's bizarre existence among them? I can't help but think the 815ers would have tied him up and tortured him by now.
-m
if they landed in Dharma times (hence Jin in dharma van) then how can the new survivors be camped out in a Dharma station??
Also, I dreamt that I was on the set of LOST (and at times just on the Island) and I kept singing "Jacky was a doctor like his daddy but his daddy's not a doctor anymore" to Matthew Fox (unappreciative) and worrying that I was getting the words wrong.
Damn Madewell, that's a Walt-style dream!
-m
P.S. Who else was disappointed in Walt's cameo?
this episode definitely made me give locke a little love i haven't felt like giving him in a long time. i really felt for him as he tried to hang onto his faith that he and the island are special, and as both sides manipulated him. widmore and ben told him the EXACT same thing; i'd have trouble knowing who to trust, too.
i still love ben, though, and i am torn between thinking he killed john because he got all the information he needed from him and later on eloise will tell him that locke has to go back too and he'll be like "oh shit, this is the second time i've killed this guy and he's come back! i hope it's not harder to mess with his mind later", or that he killed him because he knew he needed information from locke but that locke still had to die, because before he killed him they were talking about how everyone just had to get in the same room and they could convince him to go back. my thinking is the latter, because ben would have thought that locke's funeral will get everyone in the same room.
although i'm torn on that situation, i am 100% certain that when ben wakes up to locke standing over him, he'll tell him exactly that: that he had to kill him so that everyone could come together and that locke succeeded and brought everyone back to the island through his death and that ben knew he'd be back to life on the island. because he will always be able to manipulate locke. locke's kind of a sucker for anything ben says, no matter how hard he tries to resist.
I wasn't really disappointed in Walt's appearance in the episode. I think he'll have more to do later. Like making birds crash into windows. I think that it was good that he was able to foreshadow for Locke that he was on an island and there were people around who wanted to hurt him. I find it interesting that Locke, armed with this warning from Walt and armed with having just been murdered by Ben (someone who, obviously, has always only wanted to hurt Locke), he is now not saying much of anything to these plane-crash-survivors. He's usually a relatively chatty fellow but now he's all, "I remember a lot," and, "This is the man who murdered me." I mean, the less he gives up and the more mysterious he seems, the longer he can live to give Ben a butt whoopin.
Madewell - maybe they crashed right after the purge? So Ben will 'begin' his leadership for the second time?
I still think Jack is Jacob.
No LOST character is free from the obligation to speak cryptically on important matters! Not even Locke.
Jack is totally Jacob. I'll put money on it.
I wonder how honest Widmore was with John? Really, we only have Ben's word for it that he's a bad guy and a murderer. Keamey went rogue and took over the freighter, and generally being a jerk to Desmond doesn't make him a murderer. We may have been swerved.
do you think that Jack-Kate-Hurley landed in a different time then the 316ers?
I am thinking that it is possible that the poeople on the plane that has most recently crashed have gone to two different times. Ben and John left by wheel and all of the dudes that "disaapeared" left when the island moved. Just a thought.
Charles
Re: the "new" survivors being in a different time on the island.
The original survivors were pulled off the plane by a time shift.
All except ben and locke, due to being dead and sucking.
-natalie.
I am thinking that it is possible that the people on the plane that has most recently crashed have gone to two different time periods. Ben and John left by wheel and all of the dudes that "disappeared" from the plane (Jack, Kate, etc.) left when the island moved. Just a thought.
Charles
Christian = Father, Locke = son, Jacob = Holy Ghost. I'm sure anyone can crush that theory in a single blow since I only pretend I know what's going on most of the time.
-miller
I think - for no really good reason other than plot convenience - that the 815 survivors have been left on the Island around the time the Dharma Intitiative was first getting settled in (based on how new Jin's van looked). The new people from 316 (on the smaller island) must be in present day, given that the Hydra station looked abandoned. I am assuming Lapidus figured they might be on the island, given that he'd been there before and knew their story. I also wonder who he took with him and why.
I was rading a theory that suggested Sun was the other womanthat left on the canoe with Lapidus. That for some reason she wasn't zapped with the rest of the O6.
I love that Locke is wearing Christian's shoes!
-miller
Charles, I think you're thought makes sense except for Lapidus. He should have disappeared with the 815ers. Also, we all know what kind of pilot Lapidus is... the plane suggests that Lapidus successfully landed the plane as well as a Lapidus could. I would also accept that he disappeared, because we all know Lapidus cannot crash. Ever. What kind of pilot do you think he is?
And now to answer some of my own questions:
3. All ben needed from Locke was Hawking's name. Just because she's helping Ben get them back to the island, doesn't mean she wants to. Ben could be using information about her son (Faraday) as leverage to get what he needs out of her.
4. I think Natalie is pretty much right, though I think the time shift pulled off John Locke and Ben as well as Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sun and Sayid.
5. I don't like Caesar. I hope he goes the way of Frogurt. My theory is he's working for Widmore.
6. Obviously Lapidus and Sun left on the boat.
Another random speculation:
I think there is some sort of correlation between Abaddon and the Smoke Monster. I'm not saying they're the same thing, but they serve the same purpose: getting people where they need to be. Back to the religious references, Abaddon (Greek for "destruction or the destroyer") is mentioned in Revelation a few times, being the "Angel of the Abyss", "king of the locusts" whose "noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle." Also: "And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key of the shaft of the bottomless pit; he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft." (Revelation 9:1-2)
(to be fair, I got that all from Lostpedia, so it's not like I'm the first person to have thought of it. Also, it may not be the best resource, but I don't have my Bible handy. All you Biblical scholars out there give me a break.)
Dang, I didn't even put two and two together, that they were in the Hydra station, thus on the other island! Good call Matt.
And yes, that plane looked like it had a pretty easy landing, considering the circumstances. Lapidus is no Launchpad McQuack.
I'm also into the Father, Son, Holy Ghost thing, but I'm not sure those people fall into those rolls just yet (although Jacob is pretty much the Holiest of Ghosts).
After reading a bunch of LOST shit this morning (on my officially sanctioned 10 minute break of course) I have been swayed to the opinion that Ben couldn't let Locke die faithless so he had to get him fired up again, rekindle his faith in the Island & then he killed him. Now I feel that Ben showed up with the intent to kill Locke which I didn't think last night. It went by me that Ben had all the resources to clean up & make it look like a suicide (though it could be said that Ben just carries that kind of shit with him everywhere since he's such a badass).
I also think that during that last scene with Ben & Locke that the info that Jin was alive seemed to be of more interest to Ben than anything to do with Eloise Hawking.
-miller
This really doesn't have much to do with this episode, but back in season 3, we caught a quick glimpse of what Jacob really looks like. What happened to that? Why wasn't Christian there back then? When will we actually see Jacob again? I kinda miss the guy.
Also, the first thing that I thought whenever I saw Caesar and Ilana was "Nikki & Paulo."
Now a positive thing. Although it wasn't exactly a traditional flashback, it was nice to see one again. These flash-arounds, as Mustache calls them, were getting a little played out.
I'm catching this discussion late, but Michele your comment about how the 815 survivors would have tortured Locke by now was cracking me up! Remember how much torturing and pistol whipping there was on season one? That episode where Sayid tortured Sawyer was one of the dumbest!
Yeah, Walt was terrible. He can't act at all. I'm kind of frustrated with how the writers made it seem in season 1-2 that Walt was the key to everything, and now they're trying to get rid of him. But when I see his acting skills I can see why.
I read a "Walt is Abaddon" theory that seems absurd to me.
The real question here is "did DB think this episode was filler?"
-miller
Whoa...I don't check OPM for one day and all hell breaks loose! First off the Father Son Holy Ghost angle is not apt. These are clearly Gnostic charecters and as such Locke=Jesus, Jacob=Spohia( Holy Wisdom) and Ben=Judas. Widmore is Yaweh the pretender God whose false creation is destroying the pure light of the Island. Ben didn't kill Locke, he released him from bondage to non-Island reality. Just as Judas' betrayal allowed Jesus to enter the true reality of Spiritual existence. If Ben wanted Locke to not lead the Others he wouldn't have brought him to the Island, Ben is a shitbag, murdering, cocksucker, no doubt, but he's doing it for a higher purpose. Yes I said it, Ben is sucking cock for a higher purpose. How many of can say that?
PS: Get a new Walt ASAP! Dude couldn't act his way out a sandbox.
That's a good call on Abaddon/Smoke Monster.
I'm still trying to figure out Ben & Ms. Hawking's dynamic. She seems to be the only person that can mess with his head. He wasn't aware that Daniel was her son (remember his reaction when Desond told him?) so he clearly doesn't know as much about her as he'd like. Then there was his murderous freakout when Locke said her name. I'm thinking the Ben/Widmore/Hawking triangle have a lot of the Island's secrets in their history. (not the most useful insight, I know.)
I assume Sun ended up on the Island with the rest of the 815 people, but who the hell knows.
Hey Armeniac -
do you know any Jacob/Esau theory?
Is Widmore one and Ben the other?
Who's hairier? That'd answer the question. I like the Jacob/Esau theory, but would that make Jacob Issac not Jacob? It's a mind fuck.
Nothing to post but the veri-word is scalia! Has a fascist judge ever been a veri-word before?
Raise your hand if you think Helen's tombstone was a fake!
Fake. Widmore planted it there. Locke can't be distracted by love!
-miller
What if Jacob’s last name was Jingleheimer Schmidt?
If John really IS Jacob, that would make him John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt.
And THAT means his name is my name too.
*raises hand*
Peggy, er, Helen will be on the island and have been in on it all along; trying to get him to realize his potential and whatnot.
Ben and Hawking have to be working together. She doesn't have much use for Ben, but obviously needs the O6 to help her son. Or something.
But remember that Eloise got Locke's suicide note. Ben is the only one that could have made that happen. Which means the whole "what did Ms. Hawking say after class" thing with Jack a total rouse.
I still think Ben is using Jack for some emotional blackmail/guilt-trip to be named later. Though I was a bit disappointed to see that Locke wrote his own suicide note. How Old Ben would it have been to do something like that?
Sure, there was some mind blowing stuff in the episode, but easily the most mindblowing were the words "driveshaft rocks" written in red sharpie on the table that Hurley was sitting on.
Nosebleed!
-Al
PS Get a new Walt and Aaron!
Eloise and Widmore knock boots before the season is out?
The gravestone was sooooo fake. Much like time and death itself, gravestones mean nothing on LOST.
Before Locke goes to hang himself, there's a fewe shots of his toes. Looks like he only has four...
no we checked on the toes, they are all there
How many toes does Lapidus have? I'm just saying.
Also, is Abbadon really dead? If so, who killed him? It couldn't have Ben, since he admitted to it, and Ben always lies.
Best episode of the season. They're finally flipping the script.
-DB
Poor Lance Reddick. Star of The Wire looks to have a big role in Lost and then bam! bam! bam! dead. Now he's left with... Fringe. Terrible!
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